r/nba
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u/JeffVanGundyBurner
[POR] CJ McCollum
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Apr 01 '23
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If James Harden missed out on All-NBA selection in 2015-16 due to his defensive effort despite willing his team to the playoffs, the same voting standards should apply to Luka, who might not even make the playoffs altogether this season.
Harden was 2nd in scoring, top 10 in assists and top 15 in steals, but the voters pointed to his defensive effort as the reason he did not deserve an All-NBA selection. Luka's defensive effort this season is worse than any version of Harden when he had that reputation.
If the voting standards are consistent, how is the prevailing narrative in here assuming that Luka is a lock for 1st team All-NBA? This just doesn't make sense to me. The guy is an offensive machine but his numbers haven't translated to wins this year. The Rockets were 41-41 in 2015-2016. The Mavs will have to go 4-1 in their last 5 to even match that record. In my opinion, he shouldn't be selected altogether.
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u/JoshGordonHypeTrain Bulls Apr 01 '23
Because everyone agrees now they were stupid to leave Harden off and the defensive lowlights were what did it.
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u/0ctologist 76ers Apr 01 '23
Because everyone agrees now they were stupid to leave Harden off
Did they agree? Because this year they said that Harden isn’t an all-star despite obviously deserving it, so it seems the bias is still there.
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u/somedumbguy55 Apr 01 '23
“James harden, fuck that guy. For no reason fuck James Harden” NBA, probably
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u/gooberstwo Bucks Apr 01 '23
For no reason, or for a similar reason to Jokic v. Embiid.
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Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 06 '23
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u/Blaze2444 Celtics Apr 01 '23
“Narrative” lol
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Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 06 '23
[deleted]
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u/secretsodapop Apr 01 '23
Is the way that he plays the game not supposed to have any impact on the way people view the way that he plays the game?
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u/CCM721 Rockets Apr 02 '23
Yeah, "narrative" players wouldn't have been fouling him if their other option wasn't him blowing by them for an easy 2. You'd think if it was so easy to "foul bait" then every player would be doing it so they could get the same 100m+ bag as Harden. However it turns out when one of the best playmaking SG's of all time, combined with an elite first step and the ability to make step back 3's at decently high clip and add in he's a lefty which can throw players off means you have a lot to account for.
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u/talkinpractice Clippers Apr 01 '23
No narrative involved there. People hate Harden because of the foul-baiting.
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u/Technical_Towel_990 Nuggets Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
Embiid gets hate for foul baiting and whining about the MVP. Luka gets a lot of hate for whining about calls.
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u/Jungle_dweller Warriors Apr 01 '23
Y’all are conveniently leaving out the flopping.
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u/Pascalicious Apr 01 '23
lol watched Curry during those years? Man would just jump into people and launch a 3. It was a common play for him. Harden did the same shit, but only one of them is hated for some reason. I wonder why.
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u/HugeRection Nets Bandwagon Apr 02 '23
If you ignore his years before he was a superstar, Harden's lowest FTA per game is this year (6.5) and 2020 (6.3). Curry's highest in a season ever has been 5.7 FTA. Harden's highest is 10.2 FTA in a season. Let's not pretend like they're the same. Curry also didn't do shit like this.
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u/Mitsuho629 Apr 01 '23
Not just flopping, he started a trend that forced the NBA to change the rules of the game. He would throw his feet forward while taking shots to foul himself. I feel like his insane ppg during those seasons needs an asterisk based on how much the man fouled himself. This is now an offensive kicking foul because of him.
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u/0percentwinrate Knicks Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23
He wasn’t an all star because unless you are a starter they don’t give you a spot over someone who plays at an all star level and plays 70%+ games. Harden missed too many games early season. He played by far the least number of games among the guard candidates.
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u/hodgo08 Apr 01 '23
At the time the coaches got the ballots for voting Harden hadn't played enough games. That is the only reason.
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u/Jjohn269 Apr 01 '23
Nah. It’s because Luka is more liked by the media
If there’s a guy that they don’t like, it will happen again in the future
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u/ihorsey10 Apr 01 '23
Embiid glances at the camera nervously.
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u/silkkthechakakhan [CLE] LeBron James Apr 01 '23
What is it that what makes Luka so likable and Harden and Embiid so unlikable (by the media)?
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u/probablymade_thatup Bucks Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
Aren't Harden and Embiid two players who have gone without agents for large portions of their career? I wonder how that factors into media reception
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u/YoungNissan Heat Apr 01 '23
Aside from the obvious race stuff, could also be the media vs Philly in general. Seems like a lot of media members just don’t like the city. Another theory could be the league trying to prop up the Mavs as much as they can cause without Luka it’s a g-league team, while Philly has a chance to win it all this year.
Someone also said it could be due to where they come from. The NBA is really trying to get good European talent to come over, so showcasing Luka and Jokic a lot makes more Europeans watch them. Harden is American and knowing Europeans and race relations, I doubt many care that Embiid has French citizenship and just call him African.
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u/daprospecta Apr 02 '23
There is no aside from the race stuff, that's what it is.
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u/NeverSober1900 Rockets Apr 01 '23
Harden has been getting hate since Houston though so I don't think it's a Philly thing.
I do think him not having an agent is part of it. There's no real reason to "play nice" with him or risk other relationships
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u/idkwhatevs1234 Apr 01 '23
Yeah I hate how full this place is of 2 wrongs make a right logic. People acknowledge a bad decision but instead of wanting it corrected going forward they just want the opportunity to shout "if blah then why not blah blah?!?!?!?!"
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u/Annoyedatreddit1 [UTA] Royce O'Neale Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23
Because it's the same in real life situations
The "first wrong" needs to be apologized for.
If "person A" screws you over, and then later they have an identical situation with "person B," but does the right thing, you're not going to forgive them or acknowledge their growth if they don't go back and acknowledge to you what they did was wrong... Instead you're just gonna think "why did person A treat me that way, but did the right thing with Person B?"
Which is exactly what's happening here. Harden got fukt. Luka is likely going to make All NBA.
And it is inconsistent and it is unfair.
To be acknowledged as "growth," they'd need to come out and admit the way they treated Harden was wrong.
And that's not gonna happen.
So the anger is justifiable.
And there's another comment on this post that talks about how it's just cuz the media likes Luka lol, and that what happened to Harden will happen again to someone else down the road, and I fully agree with that personally lol. I think you're being way to kind to consider that they "recognize it was wrong" to leave Harden out and are treating Luka better because they realized that. They just like Luka, and therefore his defensive god awfulness will just be overlooked.
Edit: note the Jazz flair lol. I don't like Harden at all, but fair is fair. And Harden got shafted while Luka is not going to be shafted.
It just ain't right!
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u/Phightins4044 76ers Apr 01 '23
I mean at this point I'm really starting to see racism shine in through these awards. Coming from a white person. The shits can't miss. All these black players have everything counted against them, then a white person does the same thing and it's either ignored or made into a good thing.
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u/TuqiDuque12 Pistons Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23
This doesn't just apply to all NBA but I really struggle with the whole "voters screwed up real bad before, so they should do the same now"
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u/justsomedude717 Apr 01 '23
I don’t think the issue is as much screwing up, it’s the standard you set. When you are showing an award to have less and less meaningful standards it becomes hard to take seriously at all
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u/Waterologist Bucks Apr 01 '23
Different people voting for different reasons, which vary in degree every year. What is the point of a fucking vote if you expect everyone to act en masse and in lock step?
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u/44love Timberwolves Apr 01 '23
Standards change people learn data improves etc etc
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u/PetraLikesBaseball Clippers Apr 01 '23
if the standard you set is a screw up, why not undo it?
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u/MiopTop Lakers Apr 01 '23
Leaving Harden off in 2016 is what makes All-NBA seem less meaningful, not voting Luka in in 2023...
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u/Mikegetscalls Rockets Apr 01 '23
So you want a perfect vote is what your saying?
I’m sorry to inform you…
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u/dylanah Mavericks Apr 01 '23
Also we pretend that the same exact people are voting as voted several years ago, and that the context of who the person is up against is all the same. If you tell me you want year-to-year consistency in NBA awards what you’re really telling me is you want something to complain about.
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u/HikmetLeGuin Apr 01 '23
I think the point is that accolades usually have criteria and are used to compare players. If the criteria are constantly changing, then it begins to invalidate those comparisons (and perhaps the award itself).
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u/Bail____ Raptors Apr 01 '23
I mean sure, i understand the logic of 2 screw ups don’t make it right but it’s a legitimate criticism.
It’s like last season, in no way should LeBron have made all NBA with his missed games regardless of how he played he was on an awful team.
Just expecting the NBA to be consistent in any situation is just so beyond redundant
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u/kaiseresc NBA Apr 01 '23
its the old boomer idea of "I walked to school in shit conditions. Everyone should do as well".
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u/Few_Mulberry5372 Rockets Apr 01 '23
No they shouldn’t because it was a stupid decision then and it still is now
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u/MarshalMichelNey1 Celtics Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23 •
As crazy as it sounds, Harden is quite possibly the biggest All-Star Snub, All-NBA snub, and MVP snub in modern league history:
- 2023 All-Star: Averaged 22/11/6 on the team with the 3rd best record in the league. Players with significantly worse stats (Jrue), on significantly worse teams (Demar), or both (Haliburton) made the team. If any player not named Harden puts up these numbers on an elite team, they make the team easily.
- 2016 All-NBA: 2nd leading scorer. Top 10 in assists. Missed All-NBA for Lowry and Klay.
- 2019 MVP: Harden put up 36/8/7 while carrying bums to 53 wins. Had a subpar supporting cast, look up what people were saying about CP3's contract in 2019. Had the highest scoring average since MJ in 1986, while simultaneously being top 5 in assists and top 3 in rebounds among guards. That's mind-boggling and literally the definition of a "historic season". ... and somehow didn't win MVP because "Giannis won more games" (Giannis also had a stronger supporting cast in a weaker conference)
Harden used to have to average 36 to win MVP, now he needs to average 36 to make the All-Star team lmao. They've had it out for him for years.
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u/peanutdakidnappa Suns Apr 02 '23
Most disrespected all time great ever, should have another mvp and all nba and all star, absolutely whack as fuck that this man got snubbed of major career accolades. You can make a very solid case he should 3 MVPs or 2 at least and yet he’s only got 1 to show for. Lost an mvp because of a stupid triple double statistic and then put up numbers that pretty much any superstar would win the mvp with and of course lost that too. These fucks have legit hurt this guys legacy big time, there is a big difference between winning mvp once and winning it 2-3 times
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u/Rah_Rah_RU_Rah [LAL] Kareem Rush Apr 01 '23
Not even counting him losing to Russ because triple double
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u/backboarddd1_49402 Lakers Apr 01 '23
Snubbed from the MVP because of the base 10 numbering system 🤦♂️ Harden averaged 9 rebounds and 11 assists that season
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u/HorseRenoiro 76ers Apr 01 '23
Mf broke wilts points created record that year
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u/Mediocre_Peanut7615 Thunder Apr 01 '23
People acting like Russ was a bum in 2016-2017 who just somehow averaged a triple double and had no impact on his team winning games whatsoever. Dude has carried an ill-fitted, low level roster to 47 wins, while having an MVP worthy season by any metric you want to use.
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u/Rah_Rah_RU_Rah [LAL] Kareem Rush Apr 01 '23
He was great, but IMO Harden and Kawhi were better basketball players with worse stories. Triple double + KDs departure was huge for his case. It wasn't the worst snub ever, but still a snub
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u/peanutdakidnappa Suns Apr 02 '23
Russ was damn good that season but harden was just better, harden’s team wasn’t even projected to be that good at all by major publications before the season and then he carried them to a great seed and put up pretty much the same numbers as Russ on much better efficiency. Russ was amazing no doubt but he won that because of the triple double stat and because ppl just hate harden.
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u/ArethusaAtalanta Apr 01 '23
Yeah the funny part about that is he only lost to Westbrook because of the triple double, even though Westbrook's record was worse. He should have been MVP three years in a row.
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u/Sartheking Warriors Apr 01 '23
“Hey we screwed up 7 years ago, let’s make the wrong decision again just to keep things consistent!”
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u/bigbossstepback Apr 01 '23
I haven’t seen one prominent media voter acknowledge that they actually screwed up.
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u/xSuperstar Heat Apr 01 '23
Because it was arguable. Lillard and Lowry both had incredible years and Thompson was the second or third best player on the greatest team ever. There aren’t candidates in that league this year
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u/Gluxion Rockets Apr 01 '23
There was nothing specially “incredible” about lowry or lillard seasons, we have plenty of guys today doing equal or better
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u/totsnotbiased Nets Apr 02 '23
Okay, I’m going to sound like a old-head here (even though I’m literally 22) but it’s hard to overemphasize how different the league was in 15-16 than it is now. It’s so much more incredibly easy for players to put up impressive numbers now than it was back then.
Adjusted for points per 100 possessions (for players who played 42 games that season), 6 players in 2015-2016 scored 35 points per 100 possessions.
This season we are on track to have 21 players hit that mark.
Also the variance game to game is so crazy high, it’s utterly ridiculous. A player scored 45 points or above in a single game 23 times in 2015-3016, that’s happened 52 times this season and we aren’t even finished yet.
It’s not reasonable to compare any prior offensive season to one happening now
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u/Gluxion Rockets Apr 02 '23
Even when adjusting for pace/era 16’ Lowry or lillard were nothing crazy
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u/Ohsbar Warriors Apr 01 '23
Harden's fault for not having a name that ends in 'ic'.
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u/IronRevenge131 Bucks Apr 01 '23
James Hardic
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Apr 01 '23
Woah that guy sounds incredible, I would love to watch him intellectually use the rules to his advantage in order to score more points.
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u/0ctavi0n Apr 01 '23
I swear people on this sub really believe the circlejerk bs. Yeah a bunch of American voters love eastern Europeans. Harden is hated but not because he is American or black.
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u/krw13 [DAL] Shawn Marion Apr 01 '23
So strange how they leave out the Westbrook and Giannis battles Harden had when discussing him so they can swear it is a race thing. Harden was just a very polarizing player. Should people vote with feelings for awards? No. But no one stopped them from doing it and here we are.
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u/ElChapo1515 Apr 02 '23
There is a thing called colorism that’s much too nuanced for this sub to discuss.
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u/CaptainButtFucker Nuggets Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
It was wrong when they did it to Harden and it will be wrong if they do it to Luka.
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u/D_Simmons Raptors Apr 01 '23
Harden was the first player who aggressively baited fouls and people hated him for it. I have respect for him now but I hated watching him play during that era.
I think a lot of people at the time held resentment towards his play style and felt he didn't deserve the offensive success he had. Combine that with poor defense and no wonder he didn't get the nod.
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u/ScizorKicks Raptors Apr 02 '23
aggressively baited fouls and people hated him for it
he may have made it more popular, but Dwyane Wade and cp3 did it constantly thoughout their career and were the first I saw do it.
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u/laker2303 Apr 01 '23
Harden will be appreciated when he’s retired. What he did in Houston and almost beating one of the greatest teams almost assembled if it wasn’t for them going absolutely frozen solid and refs helping gs was insane. Always wanted him in a laker uniform. I would take prime harden over Luka any day. People really be forgetting how lethal this dude was sometimes
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u/JL1v10 Mavericks Apr 01 '23
Unfortunately, playoffs are how people will be remembered and Harden has all time lowlights in his biggest games
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u/Pascalicious Apr 01 '23
People keep saying this, but where outside of the spurs series has Harden been bad in a playoff series? Dude is famous for carrying a bunch of bums into games they had no business being in. He took the most stacked team off all time into a game seven with the corpse of Paul, and a team who was 3-7 probably the worst team to have ever been in a conference final.
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u/KuruptingtheYouth [MIA] Dwyane Wade Apr 02 '23
Harden gets entirely too much credit for their performance against the 18 warriors. Here is how he did in their wins where he "carried" the team:
Game 2 blowout victory: 9/24 (38% shooting) 3/15 from 3, 27 pts/10 reb/3 ast 4 TOs (+22)
Game 4 close victory: 11/26 (42%) 3/12 from 3, 30/4/4 with 3 TOs (-5)
Game 5 close victory: 5/21 (24%), 0/11 from 3, 19/4/3 with 6 TOs (+8)
Now tell me- did harden put on some Herculean effort to beat this super team or maybe do you think we've underrated how damn good that rockets team really was? Their team was incredibly well built (credit to morey) and each player fit their role incredibly well. Harden was absolutely the engine that drove it, but he wasn't carrying a shit team, he was elevating a great one.
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u/ElChapo1515 Apr 02 '23
Weird how Steph has gravity but Harden’s impact apparently starts and ends on the stat sheet.
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u/ImS33 76ers Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23
If I knew he would be healthy I would take James Harden right now. Luka is amazing and the future is probably bright even if he has to leave the Mavs to see it but at least for now I think Harden is still better when it comes down to it. The way he switched his game up to play outside of Houston is amazing and kind of shocking you usually don't see people going from being an absolutely amazing scorer, one of the best ever, to orchestrating two of the best offenses in the NBA through playmaking like they flipped a switch. I wouldn't be surprised if you could put him back into a system like the Mavs have and he would just start dropping 30+ on people's heads again
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u/Mikegetscalls Rockets Apr 01 '23
Luka in the playoffs is flat out better than Harden man.
Game 6 with no KD he didn’t nothing in the 2nd half when everybody thought we had the upper hand. I can make more than a few moments of him not coming up when it’s tight in the playoffs. Game 6 against the with no Kawhi or Parker I believe.
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u/MiopTop Lakers Apr 01 '23
Peak Harden over Luka is a warm take but current Harden over Luka is batshit insane.
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u/bravof1ve 76ers Apr 01 '23
It’s pretty clear that racial bias is a factor in how these two guys are discussed, extremely similar games, drastically different narratives.
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u/OmniscientwithDowns Huskies Apr 01 '23
I feel the same way about Jokic getting a 3x mvp. Everytime a player is close like Lebron was or Giannis was its 'well they just haven't proved it in the playoffs yet'
But the media isn't being harsh on their expectations of Jokic at all, he's just casually moving towards 3 in a row something that has only happened 3 times in the league by Russel, Wilt, and Bird
Even though he's a traffic cone defensively and hasn't proved anything in the playoffs his voting narratives are so different than other superstars that were up for this achievement
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u/InternationalClick78 Spurs Apr 01 '23
Jokic has improved after each MVP which is a part of why he continues to get MVP love. He consistently one ups himself rather than stagnating and being taken for granted like Giannis. As for Lebron, he more than likely would’ve won 3 MVPs straight if it wasn’t for ‘the decision’ regardless of voter fatigue
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u/mohub21 76ers Apr 01 '23
Embiid is the epitome of improvement as well tho. He’s gotten better every single season
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u/InternationalClick78 Spurs Apr 01 '23
He absolutely has which is why he’s consistently an mvp finalist. Choosing between him or Jokic for mvp is generally just splitting hairs imo, although generally Jokic gets the edge, likely due to a combination of elevating worse supporting casts and/or playing more games
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u/rattatatouille [SAS] Tim Duncan Apr 01 '23
Ironically playing in a stronger/more top-heavy conference may be a point against Embiid here. Philly has a similar record to Denver but they're only #3 in the East while Denver is #1 in the West by a fairly decent margin.
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u/InternationalClick78 Spurs Apr 01 '23
It was a similar story last year as well but vice versa. That’s part of why I think wins should be looked at instead of just contextless seeding
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u/antunezn0n0 Celtics Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
issue is he barely plays 60 games every season
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u/ComeAtMeYo Heat Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
Bro he's only played 4 games fewer than Jokic this season.
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u/OKCDraftPick2028 Lakers Apr 01 '23
Giannis is also improving. lmao he isn't even the best player yet when he won the MVPs.
Right now he is, and he isn't the MVP lol
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u/jackaholicus Mavericks Apr 01 '23
I mean, Giannis went from leading the league in advanced stats to not leading the league in advanced stats. It's not a super crazy conspiracy as to why he lost the 3rd MVP race.
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u/InternationalClick78 Spurs Apr 01 '23
Not really, his stats for the most part are the exact same. His ppg have gone up slightly but that’s coincided with dips in efficiency, rises in minutes and arguably less of a defensive impact. Jokic currently in the running for his 3rd mvp is making history in terms of efficiency (70% TS on 25 ppg is absolutely remarkable) while being 0.1 assist shy of a triple double and leading his team to the 1 seed.
I’m not necessarily saying he’s better than Giannis, but his steady improvement prevents voter fatigue
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u/Modzh Trail Blazers Apr 01 '23
He still keeps putting up brick houses on every shot not in the paint
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u/Gluxion Rockets Apr 01 '23
Harden had a +6 increase in PPG between MVP years and didn’t win lol
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u/TheOtherDrunkenOtter Cavaliers Apr 01 '23
Youre never going to win an MVP on a team with another first ballot HOFer and similar usage rates without some absurd stats, especially not back to back to back.
Espscially not when playing against the weakest conference ever. Literally. And running against a team being carried offensively by one young player with an exciting playstyle.
No way lebron wins MVP that year regardless of voter fatigue.
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u/pastelsonly 76ers Apr 01 '23
I mean another thing is consider how being out of shape is discussed between Harden+Embiid and Luka+Jokic.
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u/WrightwoodHiker Bulls Apr 01 '23
Why do you have a take if you openly admit you don't follow the league? Based on his play, Giannis didn't deserve to win a 3rd MVP. People have said that same thing about Jokic that they said about Giannis in 2021.
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u/ghostlima Mavericks Apr 01 '23
Giannis was good enough to win hia third though. Like not even a debate at the time. He had a subpar regular season
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u/Bosurd San Diego Rockets Apr 01 '23
It’s the push to globalize the NBA.
NBA is pushing foreign stars to bring more international viewership. $$
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u/gooberstwo Bucks Apr 01 '23
Yeah because embiid is clearly from Chattanooga. It’s why he has that southern twang.
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u/Pardonme23 Lakers Apr 01 '23
It's because Jokic plays like Magic/Bird and he reminds the old ass mvp voters of when they were in their prime
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u/twenty3isnumber1 Lakers Apr 01 '23
This bothers me too.
If you look at Giannis' year after he won the second MVP, his stats are comparable if not better than the two MVP years. He literally didn't have an ounce of hype in the MVP race though; there was no serious thought that he was going to win it after winning it two straight times, even though he was playing arguably better than the years he won it.
I HATE that. Voter fatigue is fucking stupid, and the changing narratives and standards of these awards makes it hard to take them seriously.
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u/dylanah Mavericks Apr 01 '23
People were not talking about Harden like this when he was 24. Luka is in the buildup phase and is probably cresting toward the inevitable tear-down, as happens with everyone of his stature.
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u/killer_with_kite Rockets Apr 01 '23
He was the best player in the conference finals at 22 and made the finals. People were talking about him like Manu because he was on a team with 2 mvps where he was most effective as a 6th man. If he had the reigns to his own team right off the bat, he definitely could’ve been talked about like Luka at that age. And by 24 he was putting up 25-6-5 only 2 years into leading his own team and made all nba first team.
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u/Due_Bluebird3562 Apr 01 '23
He was the best player in the conference finals at 22 and made the finals.
Didn't he shoot like 38% from the field that series?
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u/killer_with_kite Rockets Apr 01 '23
19-6-4 in the conference finals on 49-61-81 shooting splits. He didn’t play well in the finals which is what I think you’re referring to
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u/_coed_ Nets Apr 02 '23
How can you know Hardens stats in that series and still say he was the best player
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u/ghostlima Mavericks Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
This is very untrue. People forget why Harden was hated at the time, it wasnt due to lack of defense or shooting many FTs, people desliked Harden because he flagrantly played for the foul. The Step back 3 was in order to atract the defender so he could jump into his feet. The screen on top of the key, was so he could shoot through the guy if the defendee tried to go through the screen, and the main course of this was when he locked the defender's arm during the layup. Besides all the hate he got, except for that year, which we all agree was a fuck up, he was always highly regarded in terms of awards.
Now, Luka, we every week most days actualy talk about how whiney he is, which he is, but we all still know how good he is. And he gets a lot of hate here as well, not as much as harden, but what harden was doing was way worse anyway.
So racial bias? Guess its america's favorite topic
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u/nothing3141592653589 Nuggets Apr 01 '23
harden revolutionized foul baiting, and he was exceptionally good at it. He wrote the book Luka is playing from.
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u/ghostlima Mavericks Apr 02 '23
I legit do not think there will be ever anyone as good at that then Harden. The NBA wont allow it. But it was an art
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u/ElChapo1515 Apr 02 '23
The stepback 3 is about getting a clean, unassisted look lol. There is a reason it has become so insanely popular, and it has nothing to do with baiting the foul.
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u/imNagoL Raptors Apr 01 '23
Give me Harden at his peak. Better playmaker, only guy that almost beat the KD Warriors.
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u/hoffmanmclaunsky Apr 02 '23
It's not racial bias at all. It's that Luka was anointed the next great player at 19 years old because he was a Euro MVP that posted 20/5/5 as a rookie. Harden was on the bench at 20.
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u/RewardStory Supersonics Apr 02 '23
Who do you take James Harden over in 2015-16? People say Klay but he was having a great season both being efficient offensively and playing top tier defense.
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u/musicalpants999 Mavericks Apr 01 '23
I watch a lot of Mavs games and I think this shit talk about Luka's defense is way overblown. He's not a great defender but not as bad as people make out.
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u/dhoo8450 Mavericks Apr 01 '23
It's an effort thing. When he's actually switched on and not crying to thr refs he's decent
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u/dvasquez93 Warriors Apr 01 '23
Defense wasn’t the reason he missed it. It’s because after the 2015 MVP race, a lot of people felt he was robbed by Steph, which set up a burgeoning rivalry between them. People expected him to come out swinging in 2016 to show he was the real MVP. Instead, he started out ice cold while Steph had one of the greatest starts to a season in history. 20 games in and Harden looked terrible in comparison while Steph had already locked in MVP.
Between that and his foul baiting (2016 is where he really started to get that foul baiting reputation), people had him completely written off for All-NBA that year even after he picked it up later in the season.
It wasn’t fair to him, but it does happen.
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u/CJ4ROCKET Rockets Apr 01 '23
This is a nice fan fic but mostly just not true lol no one snubbed him for all-nba based on his failure to prove he's a worthy MVP candidate that year.
I buy the foul baiting part tho. It was that and the defensive low lights videos.
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u/thisguy161 NBA Apr 01 '23
Every season is different.
You don't have to follow the same selection pathways as before.
Just because the voters did something one way once doesn't mean they have to do that forever and never change or get better at voting.
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u/FamousChex 76ers Apr 02 '23
James Harden was/is a “diva” and “foul baiter” while Luka is a “fiery competitor” and “advantage creator”
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u/RealPrinceJay 76ers Apr 01 '23
It was a bad decision then, they shouldn’t repeat it. Learn from the mistake and move on. Your argument also implies Jokic shouldn’t make All-NBA which is pretty silly lol
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u/AFonziScheme Mavericks Apr 01 '23
Okay, so the quick answer is:
Harden should have made an All-NBA team in '15-'16
Luka should make an All-NBA team this season.
While stats like this aren't perfect, RAPTOR and LEBRON both say Luka has been the best guard in the NBA this season, while Harden was 5th-6th best guard in '15-'16, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
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u/larockhead1 Apr 01 '23
The voting for all awards done by media is often narrative driven and people in the media choose their criteria based on that narrative
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u/CJ4ROCKET Rockets Apr 01 '23
Nah. Voters were wrong for what they did to Harden in 15-16 and repeating mistakes for the sake of consistency is a no for me dawg. I know Luka's defensive effort is frustrating and worthy of heavy criticism, but bottom line is he's still one of the top 6 guards in the league this year.
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u/Aggravating_Impact97 Apr 01 '23
I mean you missing out on a lot of legit knocks. It was almost unprecedented how bad he was on defence. It always hurts to be historically bad and yeah maybe over time you may find vindication but in the moment it was more than fair criticism. The foul baiting was just gross and ugly look. How got to the free throw line a lot because of that and it was major part of his game.
The argument becomes then who would you take off? and you don’t have the benefit of hindsight.
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u/Atlwaavy Apr 01 '23
“We got something wrong in the past so let’s continue getting it wrong in the future”. We should be smarter now to not make the same mistakes in the future.
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u/-HeisenBird- Raptors Apr 02 '23
People treating past votes as if they're case law. Harden being snubbed was a terrible decision and should not happen again.
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u/TWIZMS Lakers Apr 01 '23
Cause there was 6 guards better than harden that year. There is not 6 guards better than Luka this year.
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u/cynicalspindle Apr 01 '23
He was 9th in the MVP voting. Only 4 guards ahead of him (Curry, westbrook, cp3, lillard).
Its like one of those situations where Gasol was DPOY but didnt make 1st team all-defence.
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u/sauceEsauceE Nuggets Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
Luka is having a better year than Harden that season and there’s less deserving guards overall
Harden deserved third team over Lowry but Doncic probably gets first team this year.
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u/AutographedSnorkel Rockets Apr 01 '23
It had nothing to do with Harden's defense. It had everything to do with the Rockets only winning 41 games that year
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u/UteFlyersCardJazz Jazz Apr 01 '23
Who was in over Harden? If Dame was the last one in, then I’m sorry, I would take Dame that year. The Blazers and Dame unbelievably overachieved that year. No one had them as a playoff team that year.
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u/FLUSH_THE_TRUMP [GSW] Stephen Curry Apr 01 '23
The voters have a hard-on for Luka’s brand of empty stats. This ain’t gonna happen
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u/CrazyChopstick Nuggets Bandwagon Apr 01 '23
Call out his defense, his shape, his whining, all of them valid, but "empty stats"? Nah bud, you've jerked a bit too hard there
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u/coffeeINJECTION Supersonics Apr 01 '23
What do you do when management intentionally sabotages you with not signing your second best player and then trade for a guy that just seems to have bad fit everywhere.
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u/lateblueheron Apr 01 '23
Or, hear me out, we can acknowledge that Harden was snubbed, learn from our mistakes, and give Luka his due recognition.
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u/AceBricka Apr 01 '23
I’m a Luka fan but if they don’t make the play in, he shouldn’t get it. Like you have to be a part of the problem if you can’t at least get to the play in.
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u/Key_Energy5373 Apr 02 '23
As great as Luka is on the offensive end, I'd leave him out for a different reason. His defense is basically non existent since he spends too much time chirping at refs that whatever bucket he might score is almost always negated by the fact that his team is playing 4v5 on the defensive end.
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u/scorelesswilliamson Apr 01 '23
They aren't.
Also, that was the worst snub in history.