Transgender women banned from competitive female cycling events by national governing body

[u/cryptocandyclub]

https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-women-banned-from-competitive-female-cycling-events-by-national-governing-body-12889818

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[u/___a1b1]

An open category does seem to be the fairest and most practical solution.

[u/Captaincadet → u/___a1b1]

That’s the plan - I’m involved with cycling races and it sounds like an open category will replace the Men next year.

This will also allow women to join if they have the correct point license.

This is pretty good idea, especially in smaller races where a strong female cyclist would often be overlapping the other competitors (which meant lap tracking was difficult)

[u/venuswasaflytrap → u/Captaincadet]

Wait - why would it replace the men's event? Why wouldn't it be a new event?

[u/blueb0g → u/venuswasaflytrap]

Because men's categories were not created to protect anything.

[u/FlummoxedFlumage → u/blueb0g]

Aren’t many sports already sort of open in the “men’s” category? I thought that was the case with football.

[u/Captain-Griffen → u/FlummoxedFlumage]

Yeah. Where men disallow women there's usually no reason for it beyond tradition.

The reality is aside from a few niche sports, women's sports is a form of widespread discrimination to achieve a social goal (letting at least some women stand a chance, plus safety in some sports).

As such, pointing to disallowing transgender women into women's sports and saying it's discriminatory like that's an argument winner is, well, bonkers.

[u/AsleepNinja → u/Captain-Griffen]

Yeah. Where men disallow women there's usually no reason for it beyond tradition.

I mean physical harm is literally a reason in contact sports. How well do think heavyweight boxing would go?

[u/Pluckerpluck → u/AsleepNinja]

That's literally what they said later in their comment, and is why they said "usually".

[u/Daewoo40 → u/AsleepNinja]

Have you seen Mortal Kombat? Seems like it could be a case study in this scenario.

[u/QVRedit → u/AsleepNinja]

That’s likely one of the few rare exceptions.

So I thought - turns out there are several others, plus different performance levels etc.

[u/AsleepNinja → u/QVRedit]

Biological differences is literally the main reason. Biochemistry doesn't care about your identity, choice.(or lack thereof), biological programming, preference, opinion or taste. It's biochemistry.

[u/Lopsycle → u/[deleted]]

I think you've missed their point. There exist cases where women were disallowed to play sport due to outmoded sexism (tradition), but most other things were open. The poster was stating that the women's only category is discrimination (whereas an open tournament wouldn't be) against men, but with the aim of women being able to compete, because of the difference in peak ability.

[u/fakepostman → u/[deleted]]

Because this conversation is literally about women being disallowed from men's categories or not. That is the entire point being made. Men are disallowed from women's, because it's unfair. Women are generally not disallowed from men's, because there's no reason for it other than tradition, and where they are it's only a tradition that we probably can and arguably should dismiss.

This is why there is no real problem with replacing men's categories with open ones. They do not exist to protect men.

Nothing I have said here is anything that hasn't already been explicitly and clearly stated in the thread above.

[u/michaelnoir → u/fakepostman]

Women are generally not disallowed from men's, because there's no reason for it other than tradition, and where they are it's only a tradition that we probably can and arguably should dismiss.

It's for rather the same reason that they have weight categories in boxing; because women are generally physically weaker than men and will be beaten by them in most physical activities. The whole point of sport is to match people at more or less the same level and see who wins.

[u/hard_dazed_knight → u/[deleted]]

What it means is if a woman tried to join a men's team and they said "no, you can't because your a woman". That is disallowing women. And as the poster said there's no reason for that other than tradition.

Women absolutely could join a men's league, get absolutely decimated to the point they give up, then return to the women's league.

In that case, the argument should be "no you can't join because you're absolutely terrible at this in comparison to the rest of the team" which is what they would say to anyone, man or woman, who wasn't good enough.

[u/AlexG55 → u/hard_dazed_knight]

In rowing, the categories are Women's, Mixed (at least half the rowers must be women) and Open.

I've seen crews with 2 or 3 women do well in races at a local level.

[u/Vehlin → u/AlexG55]

Female cox will generally help due to lightness.

[u/HeartyBeast → u/AlexG55]

Same in tennis doubles

[u/turbo_dude → u/[deleted]]

Why does boxing have weight classes? Ditto judo.

Surely if you’re down a dark alleyway and someone comes at you, you’re not gonna whip out your Salter Mechanical Bathroom Scales (Argos, £22) to see if it’s fair!

[u/PeterBrett → u/FlummoxedFlumage]

Aren’t many sports already sort of open in the “men’s” category?

In UK shooting events there are usually only open and women's categories.

Interestingly, there are some minor anatomical factors that mean women actually have an advantage in some disciplines.

[u/jimbobjames → u/PeterBrett]

I heard that men and womens vision differs, with men's being more focused towards the middle and women have more even vision that is sharper in the periphery.

I could see how that would help or hinder depending on the shooting discipline.

[u/Mukatsukuz → u/FlummoxedFlumage]

I am pretty clueless about football, so please forgive this question but does that mean that a team consisting only of men in the Premier League, for instance, could buy a female player if they wanted to?

I ask because at my last company we had a FIFA refereed football league between the different companies on the business park and we were told the women couldn't join due to official FIFA rules (which caused quite a few justified complaints).

I thought this meant that only men can play in one set and only women in the other (in the real sport, not our business park one).

[u/SojournerInThisVale → u/blueb0g]

Nor are women categories, they both exist because men and women are different

[u/Prozenconns → u/venuswasaflytrap]

Men's sporting events are basically open category anyway, theres no "limit" to how well men can perform so long as its not drug induced

It's women's sports where they have to figure out where the arbitrary line of "fair" is

It's how you get stuff like cis women getting banned for having naturally high testosterone but men with significant genetic advantages are seen as totally fine

[u/OliverE36 → u/Prozenconns]

Weren't the cis women who were banned intersex, which resulted in naturally higher levels of testosterone. Not a cis women who happened to have elevated testosterone due to genetics?

[u/rye_domaine → u/OliverE36]

cis in this context is complicated. Because intersex women who were raised as women and identify as such are for all intents and purposes, cis women. Cis just means you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth, and as many of these women don't discover they are intersex until puberty or even after, cis is probably the best descriptor for them.

[u/OliverE36 → u/rye_domaine]

Yeah I agree and should have clarified that. I was just saying it was due to hormonal interactions during puberty which non intersex women don't have, which gives them a slight advantage, which non intersex women don't have. I should have clarified that tho

[u/Prozenconns → u/OliverE36]

At least in the case of Caster Semenya, yes she ended up being intersex

but the odd thing is the sporting body was fine with her competing... so long as she medically supressed her testosterone which came with detrimental health effects... which she obviously refused

there was just an arbitrary line she naturally crossed and wasnt allowed to compete unless she anti-doped herself

Meanwhile in mens sports youve got mutants like Michael Phelps being celebrated as one of the most decorated olympians ever when in essence he rolled a 20 on the genetic lottery (not to downplay his hard work of course, I'm sure he trained extensively) and capitalised on his advantages

[u/Locke66 → u/Prozenconns]

there was just an arbitrary line

You basically have to have an arbitrary line though and that means a level of unfairness. Unless we just have Open categories for every sport and athletic event then you have to draw a line somewhere on what's perceived as a fair division between men and women's sports somewhere. It's unfortunate for those who fall into the gaps but it is what it is.

[u/ihateirony → u/OliverE36]

You can't have elevated testosterone without their being a mechanism. What do you mean by cis women who happened to have elevated testosterone due to genetics? PCOS?

[u/apricotmuffins → u/ihateirony]

Lots of genetic variations come with added medical issues. Hypermobility might be amazing in a gymnast, but it can also be a painful medical issue. People who are unusually tall are more likely to have several different diseases due to their height.

PCOS is a naturally occuring genetic condition that is overall not great for a person's health, and doesn't always mean excess testosterone. Also, not every person with PCOS wants to treat their condition with medication and hormones.

[u/ihateirony → u/apricotmuffins]

I'm not sure how to respond to what you said, I'm just asking the person I replied to what they mean.

[u/apricotmuffins → u/ihateirony]

I may have replied to the wrong comment! I would also like to know what they mean.

[u/aapowers → u/Prozenconns]

No, not for contact sports.

They'd never get insurance - the injury risk for female players is too high.

When I played rugby, our school got in quite bad trouble when they got found out playing a 16yo in the U15s. It puts the school at a massive liability risk.

We certainly weren't allowed to play against the girls.

This is the same for Rugby and American Football at professional level (last I checked).

[u/Souseisekigun → u/venuswasaflytrap]

Because in most sports the men's event is already the open event, and the women's category is created because women either cannot or will not due to physical or social issues compete with the men. And a separate open category would either be something no one cares about or just Men's 2 with supporting cast since in most sports there is no realistic chance than a cis woman or trans woman far in their transition is going to be competitive with the men. So this is just a little change to keep trans women away from the cis women while still letting them compete so no one has said they have been banned in the hopes the issue goes away.

[u/Captaincadet → u/venuswasaflytrap]

As there are females who want to race in the men’s category at smaller events anyway.

Plus quite a few races struggle to get the numbers and if men do their own event, it kinda leads to people entering the open category climbing up the points lander and license ladder and will pose more of a risk.

There’s a license category so your not going to find beginners racing next to the pros

[u/OliverE36 → u/venuswasaflytrap]

Because there aren't enough trans women to make up their own category

[u/Mukatsukuz → u/OliverE36]

Even with a specific trans category there would be arguments about whether male -> female has an advantage over female -> male, as well as non-binary people.

I honestly can't think of a completely fair solution that everyone would agree on when sports are involved.

[u/Kelmantis → u/Mukatsukuz]

I imagine (not a doctor / researcher in this area so I can’t say for sure) that gender affirming hormones at different stages of puberty might mean a different level of certain traits that are beneficial in sports.

In the only sport that I am reasonably decent at, tennis, there is a noticeable amount of difference in ability between cis male and cis female players that can be observed in all forms and including mixed doubles.

I think some research is needed for this

[u/MTFUandPedal → u/OliverE36]

Hell there's often barely enough women to make their own category viable, we usually end up having to combine various different cats to get enough bodies on for a crit race. Let alone splitting the field.

[u/___a1b1 → u/Captaincadet]

That's a good point.

[u/Captaincadet → u/___a1b1]

I’m good mates with one of the Team GB female cyclists and she will often compete in her local scratch race, and she’ll often be 3 laps ahead second placed cyclist. She finds it a little dull but uses it as training.

I’ve before had to count her strava laps to ensure that she did the right amount of laps - she was 1 lap ahead then

I’m a male cyclist and even I struggle to keep up with her - she’s probably going to complete in Cat 2 men races

[u/___a1b1 → u/Captaincadet]

Does that cause resentment from men who now find themselves placed lower down the finishing table by a pro just using their event?

[u/Captaincadet → u/___a1b1]

I don’t know as it just been announced.

But what is the difference between an male extra entry and a female entry. Personally I know someone who will kick off a hissy fit but I’m genuinely just feel “tough”

We’re talking of maybe one female a race. Not dozens

[u/___a1b1 → u/Captaincadet]

I don't know cycling, but lots of events are based around a certain level so when someone far far better who should be competing with their peers turns up then people who've worked hard for that category can be pissed off. Imagine and international golfer winning the tournament at your local course - loads of non placing people and organisers would love it, but the person no longer on the podium gets done over.

[u/Captaincadet → u/___a1b1]

Yes cycling does have categories from 4 to 1 Everyone starts off on cat 4 and can work them way up to cat 1

You need to gain points to compete in an above category than your current system.

So Mark Cavandish won’t have to worry about racing next to a new racer for example.

[u/Bottled_Void → u/Captaincadet]

Cavandish has said he's retiring at the end of this season, so it's probably not a worry for him either way.

Edit: I see you're explaining the existing points system. So my comment isn't really relevant. I'll leave it here anyway.

[u/SeymourDoggo → u/___a1b1]

It shouldn't because she would have won without any unfair advantage. That's the gist of it.

[u/___a1b1 → u/SeymourDoggo]

It's a pro entering a local race of amateurs.

[u/JonnyArtois → u/___a1b1]

That is the 'mens' category then, in most sports.

[u/valax → u/___a1b1]

Aren't the "Men's" races already Open, just females don't enter them.

[u/CongealedBeanKingdom → u/valax]

Men's and females.

[u/TurboMuff → u/___a1b1]

Darts is way ahead of the curve here

[u/Tundur → u/TurboMuff]

All sport should be sorted by ability to sink pints.

[u/Intruder313]

The correct decision and one that needs reflecting across all athletic sports

[u/aerojonno → u/Intruder313]

And importantly, made by the right people.

This should never have been an issue of national politics, it's a sporting issue to be handled by sporting organisations.

[u/Prozenconns → u/aerojonno]

but then how will the general public pretend to care about womens sports?

[u/Anglan → u/Prozenconns]

? There has been an absolutely insane push for women's sports and audience numbers are way up over the past couple of years

[u/[deleted] → u/Intruder313]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/OldGoldMould]

A sensible decision.

Apparently there are 50 transgender women competing in elite level cycling.

There have been several cases of trans women winning cycling events - a new challenge for the sport.

A very successful female cyclist, Hannah Arensman, quit the sport after finishing second, placing between two trans women. The reason? They couldn’t see the point when the competition was no longer fair.

One of the cyclists that beat her, Austin Killips, is apparently on track to compete at the Paris Olympics.

I can see why this would be a disappointing outcome for trans athletes, but it makes a mockery of female sport to allow the current situation to continue.

[u/chainpress → u/OldGoldMould]

A very successful female cyclist, Hannah Arensman, quit the sport after finishing second, placing between two trans women

She finished fourth, the trans women athletes were third and fifth. The top two positions were cis women, and she was a good three and a half minutes behind the winner.

[u/OldGoldMould → u/chainpress]

Even worse, she lost out on the opportunity for medal entirely.

[u/dopebob → u/OldGoldMould]

But if 1st and 2nd were cis women then how can she say that trans women have an unfair advantage?

[u/panicky_in_the_uk → u/dopebob]

Just because every single trans woman doesn't beat every single cis woman, it doesn't mean they don't have an advantage.

[u/2ABB → u/dopebob]

I cheated and came third and fifth out of hundreds. But it’s ok because I didn’t win!

What kind of logic is that?

[u/triplenipple99 → u/dopebob]

Because these women likely sacrificed multiple years of their lives working incredibly hard to get to this point whereas the others had to work no where near as hard to place where they did.

[u/HeronThat → u/dopebob]

Because trans women are a very small minority and are VERY over represented at the top of the sports.

[u/hiraeth555 → u/dopebob]

Because cycling is quite chaotic, so the best rider doesn’t win every race.

[u/vishnoo → u/dopebob]

are you being facetious ?
here's a 2 year old thread https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1400344909182345216?lang=en

[u/HMJ87 → u/chainpress]

Advantage =/= automatic win. If a football team starts every game 1-0 up that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to win the league, it just means the other teams are at a significant disadvantage from the outset. Just because the trans athletes didn't place 1st and 2nd it doesn't mean they didn't have an unfair advantage.

[u/YeOldeGeek → u/HMJ87]

Precisely. I have a 1st Dan Black Belt in Judo, and pre-pandemic I was training 2 nights a week. I didn't do any extra gym work on top - but I was still reasonably strong and fit for my age (now 51).

I often sparred with one of the women at our club - she's 20 years younger than me, 3rd Dan, similar height, probably 6-8kgs lighter. She trained 7 days a week, had been in the GB Squad before she had kids.

Our fights were very even, usually fighting each other to a standstill. And that demonstrates my advantage - if I had even an ounce of her experience and dedication then the balance would have shifted heavily in my favour.

Sadly our Judo club closed during the lockdowns and I've yet to go back to the sport :(

[u/mankindmatt5 → u/HMJ87]

A very good point.

If I take shit tonne of nandrolone, and try to take on Usain Bolt in a sprint, I would be tasting the dust from his boots. I imagine my time would be double his.

And it's still an unfair advantage for me.

[u/FuckClinch → u/OldGoldMould]

quit the sport after finishing second, placing between two trans women.

Are you sure? I can only find a race where she placed 4th between two trans women at 3rd and 5th, with two cis women coming 1st and 2nd. I'd not heard of cyclecross before, not usually what I think of when I hear cycling

“My sister and family sobbed as they watched a man finish in front of me, having witnessed several physical interactions with him throughout the race,” she wrote, in a statement also shared by the Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS).

I can genuinely understand being upset about transwomen in sports. Especially when most people don’t really know the effects of hrt (the amount of my cis friends that are surprised to find they are stronger than me now is quite amusing), and enough research also hasn’t really been done on a lot of this stuff anyway. but when someone is very clearly just straight up calling a transwoman a man it makes me lose some faith in their good faith

[u/RegionalHardman → u/FuckClinch]

Nothing to do with the trans argument, but cyclocross is an awesome sport. Should check it out of you're at all interested

[u/MTFUandPedal → u/RegionalHardman]

It combines all the fun of running in mud, riding a bike in mud and carrying a bike over obstacles - in mud. Oh and I forgot the crashing. In mud.

It's insanity as a sport. Great fun and very welcoming.

[u/turbo_dude → u/OldGoldMould]

I for one cannot wait to see Basketball for shortarses and the Grand National run with shire horses for beefy types.

[u/mankindmatt5 → u/turbo_dude]

Obese Olympics?

Yes and ho!

[u/ixid]

I hope that transpeople can positively embrace these changes - society is finding the sensible accomodation points for the actual issues, and hopefully areas where it is simply prejudice against transpeople can make more positive progress.

[u/Swiss_James → u/ixid]

I'm sure trans people have plenty of opportunities to wade into online hot topics should they so wish- but I would be interested to get a personal opinion from someone affected.

My feeling is that they will understand there are compromises worth accepting, but that's based on nothing.

Edit: bit weird how many of the replies to this are censored. Needs to be a topic people can speak honestly about if we’re going to come to an agreement as a society about IMHO

[u/Conscious-Ball8373 → u/Swiss_James]

The linked article contains one such response from someone affected by the ban:

She hit out at the organisation for the ban, saying it doesn't care "about making sport more diverse".
Addressing British Cycling directly, she added: "Cycling is still one of the whitest, straightest sports out there, and you couldn't care less."

The BBC quote some other parts of her statement:

Bridges reacted to the announcement with a statement on social media, calling the change a "violent act" by a "failed organisation" that was "controlling" the conversation on transgender inclusion.

This doesn't seem like someone who understands there are compromises worth accepting.

[u/am3l1a → u/Conscious-Ball8373]

She deserves to compete in the open race. Its where she belongs.

Feeling your gender is female does not make you a biological female. I can respect their/her feelings regards her gender. But I cant be expected to not believe biological facts.

Its like just because Im feeling like i am beauty queen does not automatically mean I can participate in ms universe. There is certain biological criteria i need to meet.

[u/Dnny10bns → u/Swiss_James]

You're not allowed to question anything trans here. Instaban.

[u/Swiss_James → u/Dnny10bns]

Give it time I reckon

[u/[deleted] → u/Swiss_James]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Dnny10bns → u/ixid]

On twitter they're calling it a genocide.

[u/Conscious-Ball8373 → u/Dnny10bns]

I quoted some bits of the statement above. They turned out to be some of the tamer parts.

[u/Connelly90]

I have to commend them for tackling this issue and trying to come up with a solution. It's a massive hot potato and I doubt a solution exists that pleases everybody, but it seems like there's a spirit of fairness with this and that merits acknowledging.

I hope this works out for all involved.

Slight question about how this works however; if people are taking testosterone supplements as part of a transition, does that count as using a banned substance?

[u/tunisia3507 → u/Connelly90]

Nobody really cares about trans men in sport; I think they'd have to be taking a lot of T to gain an advantage over cis men who went through male puberty. I think existing doping standards just check that your T is in the normal range, so they'd be fine doing that. If they were doing any androgens which don't register on that kind of exam, they'd be cheating as much as anyone else.

[u/BlackSpinedPlinketto → u/tunisia3507]

But do they compete with the women or men? Or is it all trans people are in the male category?

I think they should care, I mean Buck Angel looks like he could beat the crap out of most men.

[u/Conscious-Ball8373 → u/BlackSpinedPlinketto]

Nobody cares which category they compete in and that is reasonable. Men's and women's categories exist because being male (and particularly going through male puberty) confers a significant performance advantage in most sports. The split is not a symmetrical thing, it's there for the advantage/ protection of women. Men don't need that in the same way.

[u/rye_domaine]

I'm an archer. I compete against men rather than women because I know the hate and abuse I'll get if I compete against women, even though I've been told I'm welcome to pending blood tests. But you know what else I get competing against men? Hate and abuse.

Can't win. It's not about the sport, not really. People just don't want to acknowledge we exist.

[u/am3l1a → u/rye_domaine]

why do you get hate for competing against men?

[u/rye_domaine → u/am3l1a]

I get hate because I'm visibly trans, and that's really all it takes in an environment that, while better than a lot of sports, is still cis male dominated. Archery has a lot of middle aged and older men who are conservative in values and politics, and it does make me a target at times.

[u/Itsrainingmentats → u/rye_domaine]

it does make me a target at times.

Sorry for what you're going through but i did have a little chuckle at this, given the context

[u/rye_domaine → u/Itsrainingmentats]

Yeah it did feel a bit on the nose as I was writing it lol

[u/triplenipple99 → u/rye_domaine]

and it does make me a target at times.

I'm no expert but I think you're meant to stand down the other end of the field.

[u/am3l1a → u/rye_domaine]

I am sorry your are getting abuse / discrimination for just being trans and getting on with your life.

[u/sobrique → u/am3l1a]

But honestly this is the problem here. Most trans people... well, they like to play sport as much as the next person. (Which is to say, some not at all, some lots).

But the issues right now are being bullied, harassed and abused just for existing.

[u/ProfessionalMockery → u/rye_domaine]

Does sex make much difference for archery? I know it requires some strength to draw a bow but I didn't think who had the strongest bow pull was much of a factor in competition?

[u/rye_domaine → u/ProfessionalMockery]

It doesn't. Technique and skill is by far the biggest factor in deciding the better archer.

[u/ProfessionalMockery → u/rye_domaine]

Is there a significant difference between the performance of the men's and women's divisions? Why have them separate at all?

[u/rye_domaine → u/ProfessionalMockery]

It's really not much at all. In a 360 point shoot, 2 ends at 3 distances, 6 arrows per end, you might see 5 points of difference or so between the winner of the male division and the female division of the same age group. And while I wouldn't say it's common, it definitely isn't unheard of for the woman to be the one with the higher score of the two winners.

For reference, I'd say the average gap between first and second within the same division is probably about 3 - 4 points.

[u/ProfessionalMockery → u/rye_domaine]

Interesting. As long as there is an advantage in points on average, I suppose it's worth having the different divisions.

I wonder though if archery is more popular amongst men? That could explain the difference. If you have 100 men for every 10 women getting into archery, then you're more likely to have more 'gifted' people in the men's group.

[u/rye_domaine → u/ProfessionalMockery]

Yeah it's definitely more popular among men, though not terribly so compared to some other sports. Our club is probably 75/25 men to women.

[u/rawling → u/ProfessionalMockery]

If you look at the wiki page for archery at the Olympics, there is a difference in the Olympic records; I've not gone and looked at scores over the years so the records might be an outlier but the data's there if you're interested.

<E>
I've had a look at the individual scores since both events started shooting at the same distance and, in my view, there isn't really a difference.
</E>

Why it might make a difference... Higher weight bows presumably make the arrow fly faster and thus straighter; having more muscle/strength/stamina may let you shoot for longer while getting less tired.

[u/SeymourDoggo → u/rye_domaine]

There's no reason why female and male archers can't compete together anyway. Its not like you compete with 6ft longbows. Same for sport shooting, etc.

[u/rye_domaine → u/SeymourDoggo]

I'm 5'6, I shoot a 68" bow. Standard recurve bow height for men and women alike. My bow has a 30# draw weight, about the average a cis woman would compete with. The only real physical advantage I can think of is that I might have a slightly longer draw length than a cis woman of my height, but at most that means a # or two extra weight behind my arrows, nothing else.

I agree. And when we're casually shooting at the club, we don't differentiate between men and women, we all shoot against one another. Women very often score higher than men. But what can ya do.

[u/scorpiorising29]

Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.

The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".

I havent quite understood

Are they creating a new "open" category for all those who don't identify as the sex assigned at birth identity?

Or will those who don't identify with their assigned at birth sex compete with men?

Are they changing the name women's category to "Female category"?

Edit

This article has answered my questions

"Under the new rules, which were greeted with sharp criticism by Bridges, the men’s division will be replaced by an “open category” – which will now also include transgender men, transgender women and non-binary individuals. Meanwhile the “female category” for any form of competition from elite to grassroots will be preserved for those with a birth sex of female."

[u/Connelly90 → u/scorpiorising29]

It seems like trans people will compete with Men in the new "open" category.

[u/YeOldeGeek → u/Connelly90]

Trans women will.

Trans men - it depends on whether they have started hormone treatment or not. Those who are not on hormones will compete in the female category.

[u/hard_dazed_knight → u/YeOldeGeek]

Those who are not on hormones will compete in the female category.

The definition of an "open" category means anyone can compete in it.

[u/dispelthemyth → u/YeOldeGeek]

Yeah, once they start hormones they can only really compete with the men/open category as it would be considered doping in the women’s category. Before they start hormone treatment, they don’t have any real unfair advantage against other women.

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/bluecheese2040]

Feel sorry for athletes in this tbh. They were given no guidance and let's be honest teans athletes competed where they were told they could...its not their fault. An open category would make sense....but if you're transitioned from male to female and take testosterone blockers what chance would rhey have in a male dominated field? It's such a hard one

[u/Panda_hat → u/bluecheese2040]

They could choose not to be athletes, like 99.9% of the population does, and avoid all the uncertainty entirely.

It seems a strange choice of pursuit given all the obvious baggage and drama involved to me.

But then I couldn’t give even the tiniest of fucks about sports in general so I’m probably not the right person to ask.

[u/jflb96 → u/Panda_hat]

Seeing as your answer to ‘I would like to do sport’ is ‘don’t’, yeah, you’re probably the wrong person to ask about it

[u/grumpyyoga]

Hopefully, creating a clear structure will remove some of the topic's heat. It's horrible to see athletes on both sides of the debate receive unimaginable hate.

[u/Rajastoenail → u/grumpyyoga]

If this ‘problem’ gets solved, the trans debate will just move to something else.

People will simply stop pretending they care about fairness in women’s competitive sports.

[u/CNash85 → u/Rajastoenail]

It's already being rejected by hardline TERFs because the policy doesn't extend to the non-competitive level. So the comments on social media are a weird mix of men celebrating a "common sense decision" (before going right back to not giving a fuck about women's sports again) and TERFs pressing on with their agenda to make trans women unwelcome at every level of competition.

[u/am3l1a → u/CNash85]

They should not be competing in womans events in a profesional or amateur level.

[u/opaldrop → u/am3l1a]

Trans women cannot compete at an even close level to men, and top of that, at an amateur level many are trying to maintain their privacy. Any system that aimed to exclude them would amount to a total ban from even casual sport, and on top of that, how would you even enforce it humanely?

[u/saracenraider → u/CNash85]

Why should they be allowed to compete at amateur level? Amateur athletes are just as passionate about their sport and make up far greater numbers. If it’s not fair at pro levels, I cannot see what makes it fair at amateur levels.

Saying they’re allowed to compete at amateur levels when saying it’s fine that they’re not allowed at professional level is basically saying that amateur levels don’t matter. Without amateur sport, professional sport will die. Don’t be so dismissive of it.

[u/ixid → u/CNash85]

(before going right back to not giving a fuck about women's sports again)

This meme is increasingly total nonsense. Women's football viewing figures are continuously increasing, to numbers that are significant in the absolute sense, like over a billion viewers for the 2019 Women's World Cup, and the Euros and World Cup received major public attention.

[u/CNash85 → u/ixid]

It's not a meme, it's based on the number of people who comment on articles like these - almost always middle-aged men - whose interest in women's sport revolves solely around overt displays of transphobia. They never show any kind of support or concern over any other inequalities or problems affecting women's sports, like (for example) the Women's Tour cycling race being cancelled due to lack of funding.

[u/FemboyCorriganism → u/Rajastoenail]

Yep, notice that this thread about competitive cycling regulation is now the most upvoted thread on this entire subreddit (a subreddit for the entire country!) this month. I'm sorry but I simply refuse to believe that everyone engaging here is just a sincere fan of the sport who's read up on the literature about trans women in competitive sport. It's obsession with "the trans debate", nothing more.

[u/MTFUandPedal → u/FemboyCorriganism]

I simply refuse to believe that everyone engaging here is just a sincere fan of the sport

Pmsl - a significant minority would love to be able to just run us over.

See any topic on cycling.

But here there's someone else to shit on instead of the cyclists so people can pretend to care about Cycling.

I'd love to know when most of the contributors even watched a bike race, let alone a women's one. Hell the women's tour of Britain was cancelled this year due to a lack of sponsors and support.

[u/ApplicationCreepy987]

A common sense decision. An open category is the way forward.

[u/ianjm → u/ApplicationCreepy987]

The lasting advantage of male puberty is scientifically established fact at this point. I am extremely pro trans rights but the sports issue is more difficult than what your passport says, or what bathroom you use.

Dr Sabine Hossenfelder did a really good and fair video on this

[u/Ex-Machina1980s]

Good, common sense, realism and fairness prevailed. They should just make a separate category for trans people, or something like the Paralympics where they compete against other athletes of similar circumstances

[u/ianjm → u/Ex-Machina1980s]

In many sports, what is described as the mens competition is actually 'open' and the womens competition is the protected gender class.

[u/mankindmatt5]

The term 'cisgender' is widely regarded to have been introduced in 1994.

Whereas 'womens sport' has been around since at least the 19th century, with Olympic women's events first held at the 1900 games.

It's safe to say then that 'womens' sport was introduced, that it meant and continues to mean 'sport for ciswomen'. The words just weren't available to clarify this exclusivity at the time that the concept was introduced.

The fact that proponents are attempting to argue for transwomen's inclusion on a semantic basis, is a bit daft considering the hundreds of languages in the world, of which many almost certainly in their own tongue would dub the concept 'female sport' - relating to sex, rather than 'womens sport' - relating (supposedly or in a modern sense) to gender identity

[u/360Saturn]

Generally my take on this is that it's cruel to have allowed them in the first place and then gone back on it.

You do get the feeling that a lot of these policies and discussions that come through on the surface are about 'just doing XYZ to make it fairer' but in context of each other actually are coming together to put more and more limits on the ways in which transgender people can actually participate in society and navigate public spaces.

I'm hoping that things like this coming through can then stay limited to professional sport etc. instead of being taken by bad faith actors and people with an agenda as evidence that the majority of the public is on board with generally banning and excluding trans people from more general spaces and activities.

[u/Conscious-Ball8373 → u/360Saturn]

I'm hoping that things like this coming through can then stay limited to professional sport etc. instead of being taken by bad faith actors and people with an agenda as evidence that the majority of the public is on board with generally banning and excluding trans people from more general spaces and activities.

I'm not sure society has really made much headway on this; the headlines we're seeing are just the most obvious corner cases. The fundamental problem is that trans-people say that their gender identity trumps their biology (and so, for instance, trans-women are women and so should compete in women's cycling) and others say that a trans-woman's male biology is more important than their gender identity, at least for some purposes (and so, for instance, a trans-woman retains a significant competitive advantage from having gone through male puberty and since the point of the women's category is to separate people who do and don't have that exact advantage, having trans-women compete in it makes it pointless). It gets dressed up in more or less inflammatory language, but that's what's going on when people talk about "inclusion and diversity" against "fairness." We as a society seem, to me, to be a long way from having an answer to how those competing priorities play out, and indeed whether the answer is general or specific to certain situations.

One very popular moral rule of thumb is "do whatever you like so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else." In fact, it's been our basic rule for deciding moral questions on sexuality for some decades. We seem to have found a situation where it doesn't help very much.

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/rwinh]

It's the right decision - there's a difference between equality and equity, and in this instance equality was making things uncompetitive to the extent both cis women and transwomen weren't really competing fairly to the point it was causing unnecessary conflict in the sport.

Like others have already said, to make it truly fair and "equitable", open races would make sense.

No major issues with timings, no separate races causing obstructions, and you could say runners could be judged on individual and group merit better e.g. fastest cis man, fastest transwoman, fastest under 21/50+ and whatever other potential titles (e.g. receiving x treatment, has x disability, maybe for those running to support a cause?).

If anything it opens the door to more competitors and interest in sports, as others could look at X racer and think, "I'm like them, they did it this way - I could do that". They could even compare to whoever ran the fastest as a benchmark, neither taking away from the fastest runner's achievements nor those below. Seems a no brainer to me?

[u/mankindmatt5 → u/[deleted]]

Transmen are welcome to compete against their fellow men, as far as I know.

They're don't represent an issue because they're at a disadvantage rather than an advantage.

It's incredibly unlikely, but not impossible, that a transman athlete will emerge that would be good enough to compete professionally, with cis men professionals.

[u/OldGoldMould → u/mankindmatt5]

I’m not even sure that’s likely to happen tbh, as using testosterone would be considered doping.

[u/mankindmatt5 → u/OldGoldMould]

Yeah, I suppose they could set it to a particular level which was allowable.

[u/OldGoldMould → u/mankindmatt5]

You might then find men being beaten by these trans men using testosterone, feel similar to female athletes.

[u/saracenraider → u/OldGoldMould]

Given testosterone is a banned PED, they’d have every right to feel that way if one group is allowed to take it but not another. That’s sporting integrity out the window.

[u/FrellingTralk → u/OldGoldMould]

Would the testosterone really give them that much of a competitive advantage over a cis man though, I might be wrong, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of even one instance of a trans man beating a cis man in an athletic competition?

[u/Panda_hat → u/mankindmatt5]

So if that person were an afab person, couldn’t they by the new rules compete in the womens category?

[u/Elcatro]

BREAKING NEWS: Sky continues abusing the breaking news image.

[u/Daedelous2k]

Good call, just have mens, womens and an open category.

[u/360Saturn]

Forgive me for going slightly off topic, but why on earth does this have 20k upvotes and thousands of comments?

[u/fsv → u/360Saturn]

The post hit Popular/Trending, meaning the post was shown to a much wider range of people than it would have otherwise been exposed to. The timing of the post also meant that it remained popular during US waking hours.

Most of the comments (particularly those from users without a history on the sub) didn't end up visible thanks to the restrictions on the post but even before the post hit Popular, it was getting a lot of attention just from normal subreddit users.

Looking through our traffic stats the sub was busier yesterday than any other day in the previous three months.

[u/360Saturn → u/fsv]

Okay, that actually makes sense. I was totally baffled as to why what's a niche sport anyway suddenly had picked up so much interest.

[u/Kijamon]

Can women enter the open one. Didn't see that mentioned

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